Curse

Ccat · Sep 16, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Basically, pvx is where people go to get builds who can't make decent builds themselves. Not saying everyone, but most. Hell, I even use pvx to get hero builds when I'm using certain heroes to tide me over until I get three necros or paras or the like.

Yeah, I'll try out my own stuff and vary build concepts I like but I will always use hero builds from PvX. Testing what skills heroes will and will not use is such erroneous trial and error I'd rather use Sabway. Constantly dying and opening your hero window to see he has full energy is almost infuriating if it weren't ironic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I didn't start playing this game yesterday.

Oh yes, let us hear time and time again about how you played the game back in 05 and how totally awesome you must be. Or how you're just abusing your '05 join date to give yourself more credibility, I dunno.

Whether you joined in '09 or '99 I don't care. It's what you know that counts. You're obviously not very good at this game since stating that Mesmers are better with AP than Monks, or saying ViM! doesn't work instantly without acknowledging it's potential 30 or so energy every 15 seconds. Or presenting baffling logic like not using overpowered PvE skills because they weren't there back in the good 'ol days, right?

I'm not bothered about your E-go and nobody else is but you. I know your type, just stop with the grandeur and come back down to earth.

Age · Sep 16, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Yeah, I'll try out my own stuff and vary build concepts I like but I will always use hero builds from PvX. Testing what skills heroes will and will not use is such erroneous trial and error I'd rather use Sabway. Constantly dying and opening your hero window to see he has full energy is almost infuriating if it weren't ironic.

Oh yes, let us hear time and time again about how you played the game back in 05 and how totally awesome you must be. Or how you're just abusing your '05 join date to give yourself more credibility, I dunno.

Whether you joined in '09 or '99 I don't care. It's what you know that counts. You're obviously not very good at this game since stating that Mesmers are better with AP than Monks, or saying ViM! doesn't work instantly without acknowledging it's potential 30 or so energy every 15 seconds. Or presenting baffling logic like not using overpowered PvE skills because they weren't there back in the good 'ol days, right?

I'm not bothered about your E-go and nobody else is but you. I know your type, just stop with the grandeur and come back down to earth.

I am not only on this forum I am on 4 others and one were a lot of the beta testing came out.I don't think you really know how bad AP is on a Monk.You want to know how bad ViM is on Monk well if you can find a member of the old Treacherouse Empire [TE] then ask them.I don't think you read many of Ensign's posts of Idiot Savants [iQ].You could ask War Machine[WM] or The Last Pride[Evil].You could QQ it to.

I agree with everything Burst Cancel is saying.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 16, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I'll say it again, because it needs repeating

AP on a monk is fine if it isn't what's holding your build together, or if you yourself are the only one holding your team together.

Lets take a build like this for instance:

Assassin's Promise
Aegis
Seed of Life
Selfless Spirit
Divine Spirit
Protective Spirit
Divine Boon / optional
Reversal of Fortune / Optional

Without criticizing my on my optional choices, In the event that AP should fail and Divine Spirit runs out, you'll have a bar kinda like this:

Selfless Spirit
Protective Spirit
Divine Boon / Optional
Reversal of fortune / Optional

So you won't be able to spam Aegis OR Seed of Life anymore, but you do have good energy management with SS, protection with PS, and either more protection with optional skills or pretty good spamable healing with RoF (or dismiss condition, for it's conditional heal that isn't based on removing the condition)

So basically if AP fails, you're forced to actually monk actively and not spam. I don't think this makes you entirely worthless for the period AP is down, so long as you at least halfway know what you're doing and have a healing monk with you as well.

Bloodied Blade · Sep 16, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I am not only on this forum I am on 4 others and one were a lot of the beta testing came out.I don't think you really know how bad AP is on a Monk.You want to know how bad ViM is on Monk well if you can find a member of the old Treacherouse Empire [TE] then ask them.I don't think you read many of Ensign's posts of Idiot Savants [iQ].You could ask War Machine[WM] or The Last Pride[Evil].You could QQ it to.

I agree with everything Burst Cancel is saying.

Mmm, WM, EviL, and iQ. Man, that brings back memories. Either way, try AP on a monk before you knock it. It's not exactly the best thing in the world, but it's quite powerful.

Edit: Citing a slew of old PvP guilds also isn't something you should do for credibility in a PvE discussion, but whatever.

To the OP- You can run (and do quite well with) some pretty unusual skill builds. Just run what you enjoy / is effective.

As far as the idea of a prot-spammer goes, I suggest that you learn how to effectively prot and pre-prot, provided you don't know how already. This will greatly reduce your energy consumption before you even take AP (and Aegis / Seed chaining) into account.

Ccat · Sep 16, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I don't think you really know how bad AP is on a Monk.

Way to elaborate. Let me just say anything that can chain a skill that can heal for 1000 in a split second and use a skill that reduces melee's effectiveness by 50% all by itself is not a bad bar. No matter how bad it is to use, your expertise should cover the gap, allowing you to use AP at the right times. Fragile yes, but all AP bars are.

And when you talk about AP Mesmer I assume your talking about this. I see it needs to echo Cry of Pain just to get it to its former greatness and has two other unspammable AL-ignoring spells. So if used on the right target it can deal 300 or so damage? That's not as good as Necro AP, which can deal thousands of AL-ignoring damage in short spaces of time only to be used again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade

To the OP- You can run (and do quite well with) some pretty unusual skill builds. Just run what you enjoy / is effective.

As far as the idea of a prot-spammer goes, I suggest that you learn how to effectively prot and pre-prot, provided you don't know how already. This will greatly reduce your energy consumption before you even take AP (and Aegis / Seed chaining) into account.

The two paragraphs kind of go hand in hand. I wanted a prot spammer because I thought it would be fun, not because I'm an idiot. Spamming Shield Guardian to not only keep your target blocking and alive but using it as a large AoE heal as well just appealed to me. But, I'm not much good at using AP on anything but a target with full life so this can quite often lead to party wipes.

maxxfury · Sep 16, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Way to elaborate. Let me just say anything that can chain a skill that can heal for 1000 in a split second and use a skill that reduces melee's effectiveness by 50% all by itself is not a bad bar. No matter how bad it is to use, your expertise should cover the gap, allowing you to use AP at the right times. Fragile yes, but all AP bars are..

Dont try and convice him(unless you enjoy the lulz) he argues till he is blue in the face that a monk with arcane echo+woh/ZB out heals an ER infoozer easily. next topic

Barring lag you should, with a little practice with your timing, be able to solidly hit your Ap and get it to proc. Even if you arent brilliant at target selection your self in the heat of the battle, get a team mate to ping the targets so you can t+cast on them

its definitely a heavy micro bar! compared to some braindead hp spam. But i fall asleep with nothing to do but pound gole+hp ect

IF you run selfless spirit AP goin down DOESNT kill the bar, you still have your main Emanagment with selfless to power cheap heals(patient + kiss) or your booned Rof. Cheap PS, super cheap Soa and your aegis +seed on usual recharges* These skills in them self are all powerfull enough to MORE than hold out without AP recharges! If you took divine spirit over selfless you trade off the fragility of loosing you Eman if you bork AP for the bigger -e (-5 per skills vs -3)

The MAIN down side is this : if your team cant score kills.. THEN you may have issues(but one kill every 10 seconds isnt hard is it :P even for idiots), but then the same is for ANY monk bars really maybe to a slightly lesser degree, no kills means your E is getting hammered keeping up with the pressure.

*no counting fast recharges from equip ofc.

Age · Sep 17, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Way to elaborate. Let me just say anything that can chain a skill that can heal for 1000 in a split second and use a skill that reduces melee's effectiveness by 50% all by itself is not a bad bar. No matter how bad it is to use, your expertise should cover the gap, allowing you to use AP at the right times. Fragile yes, but all AP bars are.

And when you talk about AP Mesmer I assume your talking about this..

Nope that is not what I am talking about I use normal skills on my Mesmer with AP.The reason you can use that on a Mesmer compared to a Monk is they use more 15e spells were as a Monk only uses 1 or 2.It is far better for Monk to use Glyph of Lesser Energy and not give up their elite slot to AP.This is good for both Aegis,PS or SB all being 10e spells.It is better to have Woh for the added conditional healing when health is below 50% as well as DKiss /Patiant Spirit for spot healing.

I am not blue that face just trying to make you understand that there are better ways to use a Monk is pve.You read the stickied guide there is no mention of AP.What is in there is all you really need for good to great Monking.

Ccat · Sep 17, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Nope that is not what I am talking about I use normal skills on my Mesmer with AP.The reason you can use that on a Mesmer compared to a Monk is they use more 15e spells were as a Monk only uses 1 or 2.

And for that reason using Seed of Life constantly for +100000 health regeneration is redundant. Gotcha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It is far better for Monk to use Glyph of Lesser Energy and not give up their elite slot to AP.

It sure would. But wait, GoLE doesn't seem to make the entire bar recharge. Bummer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

This is good for both Aegis,PS or SB all being 10e spells.It is better to have Woh for the added conditional healing when health is below 50% as well as DKiss /Patiant Spirit for spot healing.

Now you can heal one target instead of healing the entire party! Full life bars > 240 point heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I am not blue that face just trying to make you understand that there are better ways to use a Monk is pve.You read the stickied guide there is no mention of AP.What is in there is all you really need for good to great Monking.

So if it isn't in the sticky guide which was created back in 2007 it must be redundant? It's impossible to come up with anything that's not in that guide? It's this simple, AP Monk has the potential to keep the party alive all my itself in the face of unbelievable amounts of pressure and WoH can't. It has a constant party heal that heals for more the enemies go up, nothing else does. WoH is not the be-all and end-all of Monk bars. AP Monks are fragile but NOTHING can do what AP Monk does. You may think you won't need that much healing but everyone dies and that would be because you didn't heal well enough. AP Monk is that well enough.

In theory, AP wins. In practice, WoH wins by your marks. I get it.

maxxfury · Sep 17, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Nope that is not what I am talking about I use normal skills on my Mesmer with AP.The reason you can use that on a Mesmer compared to a Monk is they use more 15e spells were as a Monk only uses 1 or 2.It is far better for Monk to use Glyph of Lesser Energy and not give up their elite slot to AP.This is good for both Aegis,PS or SB all being 10e spells.It is better to have Woh for the added conditional healing when health is below 50% as well as DKiss /Patiant Spirit for spot healing.

I am not blue that face just trying to make you understand that there are better ways to use a Monk is pve.You read the stickied guide there is no mention of AP.What is in there is all you really need for good to great Monking.

Which 15e spells does a Mes use on a consistant basis?....backfire/ether nightmare? maybe arcane echo..

Sooo..being able to mitigate the cost of TWO ps/sb ect Per 30 seconds is beter than been able to regain 14/15 energy PER KILL?.... ESPECIALLY when your team can score a kill every few seconds?! especially under SS.. Learn maths aye

Step OUT of your little box, and widen your view...of what you have been told works..and maybe TRY it your self.

And i presume that would be "blue in the face", go re-read the ER infooozer thread, and your OWN posts...thanks..

SIdenote: i wish i lived and died by stickies that other people wrote as a basic guid,(the complete opposite to the principle of the wiki which is basically another sites version of 'stickies'...i guess id be a lBETA legend too *rollseyes. *sigh

Over the months were ive payed ANY attention to your uninformed and quite frankly outdated opinions Mr Age, ive learned to take them with more than a pinch of salt....to say the least..

AS i said before, derailed. next!

Age · Sep 17, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Seed of Life is only good depending on what you SS rank is.

GoLE doesn't take away your elite slot and you don't need to have your all bar recharged.

That sticky is still valid by today.I will tell you AP wasn't around in 05 and there were no heros.We didn't use henchies in mission either all real ppl and a lot used Woh but back then it was target other no yourself.I guess your AP build would ok with heros but for real party WoH would be better.

maxxfury · Sep 17, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Seed of Life is only good depending on what you SS rank is.

GoLE doesn't take away your elite slot and you don't need to have your all bar recharged.

That sticky is still valid by today.I will tell you AP wasn't around in 05 and there were no heros.We didn't use henchies in mission either all real ppl and a lot used Woh but back then it was target other no yourself.I guess your AP build would ok with heros but for real party WoH would be better.

SS rank is cake to level up to 6/7 in normal storyline ...when its effective..

OFC the sticky is still valid but doesnt cover everything..

and '05 ISNT '09! and your damn wrong that people didnt use henchies back then! they have always been used :S weather you could achieve critical mass for an area or not! NOT everyone had a guild/friends with ppl wanting to do that area! and rely on randoms.

AP doesnt rely on heroes to be worthwhile! ALL IT TAKES IS a little battlefield awareness and micro! not hard

and if you need BOTH the backline to take power heal like woh then your doin it wrong..

and its 2009! Not 2005!...move on....seriously :S the game has, the skills have, the meta has and the players have...

Fleeting · Sep 17, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Edit: I'm not going to continue attempting to use logic. I read the ER Infuser thread and the idea that someone can be mathematically proved wrong and yet think themselves correct is pretty funny.

Back on topic

Age · Sep 17, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Which 15e spells does a Mes use on a consistant basis?....backfire/ether nightmare? maybe arcane echo..

Sooo..being able to mitigate the cost of TWO ps/sb ect Per 30 seconds is beter than been able to regain 14/15 energy PER KILL?.... ESPECIALLY when your team can score a kill every few seconds?! especially under SS.. Learn maths aye

Step OUT of your little box, and widen your view...of what you have been told works..and maybe TRY it your self.

And i presume that would be "blue in the face", go re-read the ER infooozer thread, and your OWN posts...thanks..

SIdenote: i wish i lived and died by stickies that other people wrote as a basic guid,(the complete opposite to the principle of the wiki which is basically another sites version of 'stickies'...i guess id be a lBETA legend too *rollseyes. *sigh

Over the months were ive payed ANY attention to your uninformed and quite frankly outdated opinions Mr Age, ive learned to take them with more than a pinch of salt....to say the least..

AS i said before, derailed. next!

I would say you are the one that is blue in face and I still stand by my points.There are to many 15e spells to mention that Mesmer uses but they do.When have you been in the Monk forum as I never seen you in here untill now.

Quote:

and '05 ISNT '09! and your damn wrong that people didnt use henchies back then! they have always been used :S weather you could achieve critical mass for an area or not! NOT everyone had a guild/friends with ppl wanting to do that area! and rely on randoms.

We did not use henchies for high lvl missions back then.The good Monks out there have hang up their wands and stuffs.

Fleeting · Sep 17, 2009, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Barring lag you should, with a little practice with your timing, be able to solidly hit your Ap and get it to proc. Even if you arent brilliant at target selection your self in the heat of the battle, get a team mate to ping the targets so you can t+cast on them

its definitely a heavy micro bar! compared to some braindead hp spam. But i fall asleep with nothing to do but pound gole+hp ect

IF you run selfless spirit AP goin down DOESNT kill the bar, you still have your main Emanagment with selfless to power cheap heals(patient + kiss) or your booned Rof. Cheap PS, super cheap Soa and your aegis +seed on usual recharges* These skills in them self are all powerfull enough to MORE than hold out without AP recharges! If you took divine spirit over selfless you trade off the fragility of loosing you Eman if you bork AP for the bigger -e (-5 per skills vs -3)

The MAIN down side is this : if your team cant score kills.. THEN you may have issues(but one kill every 10 seconds isnt hard is it :P even for idiots), but then the same is for ANY monk bars really maybe to a slightly lesser degree, no kills means your E is getting hammered keeping up with the pressure.

*no counting fast recharges from equip ofc.

Pretty much this. If you remember to pack selfless, missing AP won't kill you for the elite's entire recharge.

Figure out how quickly your team does damage and you'll know when you should put AP on a target (usually a few seconds before it's dead). Once you've got that down, you now have a one-monk Aegis chain, near-permanent Seed of Life, and more energy than you know what to do with.

Run the build through some easier stuff to get your timing down, then go through some midrange / harder missions and let us know how it works for you.

maxxfury · Sep 17, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

.When have you been in the Monk forum as I never seen you in here untill now.

We did not use henchies for high lvl missions back then.The good Monks out there have hang up their wands and stuffs.

Ive been around

quite often. But then i dont need to make a show of my self in every thread like some people do to "make a name for my self" on guru...

Back in proph it was cake to henchie the whole game(YES even THK pre nerf.)..and many people did...and by "we" i presume you mean YOUR circle of friends cos blanket statements like that about the whole community are silly, ofc people used henchies :/ not everyone had a guild or wanted to pug..*yawns

Prob should have this closed as the Topic is pretty much covered

maxxfury · Sep 18, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Ohh Selfless spirit nerf! its back to pants without ap again.

NOW Ap boon prot is back to been a little more fragile if you bork ap

Chthon · Sep 18, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that AP/Boon is too fragile now. Whatever interest it had for me is gone. I'm sticking to AP/hybrid. (Though they nerfed PAtient Spirit too...)

AP mesmers died along with Cry of Pain. Back before the nerf, BUH-->AE-->CoP-->CoP-->AP-->Finish Him was right up there with AP-MoP necros for damage output. Since then, mesmers are again an utterly second-rate character class for PvE.

maxxfury · Sep 18, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Ohh Selfless spirit nerf! its back to pants without ap again.

NOW Ap boon prot is back to been a little more fragile if you bork ap

Doh! i meant to put AP monk not just the boon version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that AP/Boon is too fragile now. Whatever interest it had for me is gone. I'm sticking to AP/hybrid. (Though they nerfed PAtient Spirit too...)

AP mesmers died along with Cry of Pain. Back before the nerf, BUH-->AE-->CoP-->CoP-->AP-->Finish Him was right up there with AP-MoP necros for damage output. Since then, mesmers are again an utterly second-rate character class for PvE.

Before the selfless buff i ran it on both my ap hybrid and ap prot bars with VERY little trouble, but yeah, the buff made BOTH bars more stable!
Zero downtime on your Eman was sexy if you messed up.

With this patch Apmonks are still easily viable and still do what they used to JUST as well which is top notch prot/support! massive partys seed heals, perma party blocks, smalls prots galore and enough single target bar pushing to make hm mobs cry and abuse of PS!! all while sitting with a stupidly healthy blue bar.
Really doesnt change anything for how i played them anyway.

Tho i often took divine spirit for the boon version anyway for the better -cost of spells to cover the boon issues.

So BASICALLY! its back to what it was a couple of months ago before the buff and all the other monks picked up on the 'spirits, APmonks are still broken

And sad times eh! RE the mes. Spamming Sins + FH! is fun but meh.

Ccat · Sep 18, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Well, I'm glad that skill has been taken down, in truth it was a bit overpowered. Now it's just right.

Ironically this nerf to SS will make AP BoonProt all the more popular. When people look for ways to make the skill last indefinitely they will find BoonProt.

paranon · Sep 18, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Personally i don't like running any AP bars on a monk:

I don't run AP discord support because it is unnecessary and boring (don't argue with me on this one, it is my opinion and i know that lots of other people think different, but for me, mindlessly spamming 1-2-3-4 is not why i play guild wars.)

The other AP build for monk is the AP/Seed/Aegis spam build, i do not have much experience with this build and i don't pretend to, as with Discord support i find it boring to play and mindless, i do not like spamming anything. I do not doubt that it is a powerful build, my issue is not with how well it works, it is how fun it is to play.

The 1 bar i run on a regular basis as a monk is my WoH hybrid, i love this bar, it provides me with everything i want from a monk bar:

-It is Highly Versatile, anything can be switched out to fit the area you are going into or changed to fit with the party.

-It takes a fair amount of skill to play well. I didn't choose to play monk when i first started guild wars because i thought it would be easy, i didn't choose it to spam 1-2-3-4, i chose it for a Challenge, a WoH bar provides this challenge, when i am playing, i have to be constantly watching the field and preprotting targets, at the same time i am watching bars and bumping up any that get too low, at the same time i am watching my energy and making sure i am in the right weapon sets for each spell. It provides a challenge for me, which is something that (imo) spam bars lack.

-It is fun, i never get bored when i play monk. i can spend hours in a vanquish or dungeon and hardly even notice it, having to concentrate hard means that you get totally engrossed in what you are doing, which is something that i don't get from other classes.

Everybody has their own preferences, but for me, i choose a build on how fun it is to play and how much i enjoy playing it, i do not give as much thought as to whether it is the "most effective" thing that i could be playing.

Effectiveness and power aren't everything.